Personalized Marketing at Scale w/Jim Laurain
Jim Laurain and I explore how AI-enhanced customer data can personalize distribution, offers, timing, and content using behavioral signals marketers already collect.
Get the next practical AI marketing episode wherever you listen.
AI has made content creation cheaper, but the harder marketing problem is distribution: deciding who should see what, when they should see it, and why it should matter to them. Jim Laurain and I explored how AI-enhanced customer data platforms can make personalization more useful than simply inserting a first name into an email.
Content is no longer the constraint
You can now create songs, videos, product descriptions, and lessons quickly. The bottleneck is matching those assets to the right person. A personalized experience might use a customer's job, industry, behavior, or stated goal to select the message and the next action.
My own course experiment followed that pattern. A lesson could be paired with a student's job title, industry, and stage of learning, then turned into a short action plan that speaks to the student's world. A CMO and an email specialist can learn the same principle through different examples.
Use the data you already have
Companies often say they do not have enough data, but behavioral signals are everywhere. Did someone click? When did they open? How much did they read? Did they scroll? Those signals can help determine interest and timing, especially when combined with the profile data already in an email list or CRM.
The challenge is cleaning and organizing the data so a system can use it. Personalization needs parameters. Without boundaries, every variation can become chaotic and the experience stops feeling consistent. Similarity matters because people should recognize the brand even when the message changes.
Personalize the decision, not just the words
The most useful personalization changes the offer, sequence, or next step. An ecommerce store may show what is relevant to a customer rather than what is merely popular. A service company may recognize that someone is at risk of churning and intervene earlier. An automated email can save time by making a decision before the marketer manually reviews every record.
AI helps connect these signals to a content library and a delivery system. People still need to define the segments, review the assumptions, and decide what outcome matters. The goal is not infinite variations. It is a more relevant experience built from the information a customer has already given you.
In this episode of AI-Driven Marketer, Dan Sanchez is joined by Jim Laurain, an expert in advanced marketing platforms and personalization through AI, to delve into the intricacies of using AI-enhanced Customer Data Platforms (CDPs) for crafting personalized marketing strategies. They discuss the advantages of AI in understanding consumer behavior on a granular level, the transformation in message personalization with tools like AMP, and the real-world implications of integrating AI across various platforms like ecommerce and fintech. Jim also shares insights into overcoming the challenges in data aggregation and the future potential of AI-driven targeting in creating more effective and efficient marketing campaigns.
Timestamps:
00:00 Personalized music and video creation using AI.
03:42 Basic steps in learning AI, personalization through AI.
06:53 AI personalization tailors product offers to users.
11:56 Identify reasons for app use, personalize interaction.
14:35 Quality of sample matters more than statistical significance.
18:37 Ecommerce: popularity doesn't always equal conversions. Personalize.
20:00 Customization needs parameters to avoid chaos. Similarity is crucial for user experience.
22:52 Customize messages, build content library, timing.
29:07 Creating products through data science, initially unnoticed.
29:53 Advancing technology creates need for education.
33:59 Understanding customer behavior drives effective marketing tactics.
36:23 Seeking specific items at Lowe's can be frustrating.
40:34 Email automation saves time and simplifies decisions.
42:50 Zencastr's clipping tool simplifies clip sharing.
46:53 Use AI to engage users with injuries.
51:05 Identify churning early; data science will prevail.
52:38 Twitter data potential, AI Grok's real-time insights.
55:54 Discussing growth, personalization, and tech at MAU conference.
[Music]
welcome back to the aid driven marketer
I'm Dan Sanchez friends call me danz and
I'm here with James Lorraine who is
working for a fascinating company called
amp who's who's really killing it on the
personalization side of AI and James
before I had you on I told you I was
excited about this topic because I I
recently had an epiphany um thinking
about like okay the future of AI you
know you try to like the buter you can
forecast the better you can make
decisions now and start going in the
direction of that forecast and when I
started thinking about the future James
I was seeing Sora and I saw um udio or I
forget how they pronounce it but I call
it udio you know.com with the music
right and it's making live music and
you're like oh my gosh like some of the
cherry pick songs are actually freaking
good like that could be real music and
then you look at that and you're like
you know what like right now it takes 60
second to generate this and Sor will
probably take a few to generate but I'm
like in a few years time this stuff's
going to be done in real time and
there's no reason why we're not going to
be experiencing like custom music tracks
and custom little videos that are
completely customized and personalized
for people real time on websites or
wherever the heck we're going in VR like
it's it's going to feel like video game
level real- Time stuff and I'm like the
future is just going to be highly highly
personalized and that's that's going to
be a huge part of AI like huge because
who doesn't want it to be more
personalized like I used to joke with I
know I haven't even let you talk yet but
I I used I've made a couple of kids
books I'm like wouldn't it be cool if I
could like custom order a kids book and
it was customized to my kids what I want
to teach them but with their names and
personalities and interests baked into
the book and just printed on demand bam
boom fully personalized and essentially
that as far as I know that's what you're
doing with amp is that correct like
you're personalizing apps yeah this is
this is this is actually we're hopping
right in what you've just hinted at what
you've just said is where most people
are right now what we're trying to do is
get people to the next level here's what
I mean right now ai people are thinking
content generation I can make stuff I
can make a kids book I can make this I
can make videos in six 60 seconds I can
make music I can make and so we've had
this explosion of basically like content
isn't your constraint anymore it used to
be it used to be that like you know I
can't I can't write enough blogs I can't
make enough product descriptions I can't
make enough videos or songs or whatever
that was my but that was my holdup now
the problem is distribution so I can
create anything I can create a bunch of
song I can create a million songs right
now if I wanted to what do I do with
them how is it effective once I have
them how do I determine who gets what
and who likes what and who and that's
that's what we that's what that's what
amp is doing basically so I I see it as
person I mean what I don't think people
even using AI for True personalization
yet yes they're coming up they're making
content but I'm even with the kids book
thing the personalization factor is the
app that makes it easy to make the kids
book right someone's got to make that
app or that SAS or that that tool maybe
it's Amazon I don't know someone's got
to make that and load it in with all the
like questions essentially almost it's
almost like a survey in order to make
said book because people don't even know
what they want so you have to guide them
through that process but I imagine it's
going to get to a point
where yeah personalization
happening it's not just content but like
the content gets personalized let me
show let me tell you an example that I'm
working on currently and I'm like I
haven't seen anybody else do this but
it's currently technically possible so
I'm I'm launching this little AI course
you know it's it just goes through the
basics because I have a lot of friends
that are like Dan how do I how do I get
through to where you're at I'm like well
it starts with super prompts learn how
to do super prompts then I have
something called the step method where
I'm using templates and examples and
also to feed into the Super prompts and
then chain prompts and then you start
with custom gpts after that you know but
I'm like I'm feeding these lessons into
my CRM to drip out via an email course
and of course my crm's equipped to go go
ping AI or open ai's API I'm like what
if I just take the transcript from each
one of the videos in these emails and a
few pieces of information about the the
student you know what their job title is
what industry they're working at maybe
what their their stage of learning AI is
and I send it back open a based on this
lesson and based on this what we know
about this person give me give me some
give me give me a short little action
plan for this person that's
personalization but it's it's way more
than just the Mad Lib style we've been
using for forever it's actually
personalized instructions is it kind of
shallow yeah but is it way better than
if I had just written a generic sample
yeah way better because it's speaking to
their world speaking to CMO is going to
be different email marketer special
email marketing specialist right very
different but still in the same context
of the lesson that's kind of where I I
where it's capable of being now but in
the future I can only imagine what that
like the video will even be customized
in the future no and you're hinting
towards exactly exactly what we do this
is really cool so part of this is again
around the distribution who gets what
and how do we determine who gets what
and what they see and all that stuff so
what we have found so data is a data
data is a problem for compan they view
data is a problem there's never enough
data it's never clean data you know for
your example it's your email list you
have your email list everybody has a job
title and things like that but really
you probably have more data than you
think you do or realize you do you also
have information about did they click
did they not click when did they click
when did they open how much did they
read did they scroll down this far did
they there's a ton of data here so what
we've found is you can feed that
data back into the AI and not just just
create like the custom content because
again everyone's heads in content right
now not just the custom content for the
course but also when should I send this
email how often should I send this email
should I send this email or this other
email like there there are a lot of
decisions there that can be made and
that's that's what we're doing at a
brand scale now think of it for a brand
you have especially so we'll just say B
Toc think of like a clothing retailer I
have every time you've open an app if
you have an app every time you've open
an app did you open EMS what did you
click which piece of information did you
click what did what products did you
view did you add to cart did you add to
wish list did you remove did you use a
promo code a gift a promo code a gift
card the the amount of data you have is
massive so what most companies do now to
your point is they build kind of a
static user Journey you know I send an
email day one welcome and whatever and
then I might put in a recommendation a
product recommendation or something like
that and the view of AI personalization
or just personalization in general to
your point is the template like hi first
name you know and here's a product for
you and then I fill that with a
recommender system what our system does
is say we have way too much information
to be playing that game what we should
do is we should take all of that
customer data and feed it into AI
similar to what you're saying with your
email you know the same thing you're
doing with your email as subscribers and
say what you know for example what what
should we send a user should we send an
SMS should we send a push an email you
know if we send that channel when when
should we send it what should we put in
it and we're building that user
experience and and it's even decisions
like um and we're getting into the
agentic part which we should talk about
but decisions like if they abandon a
cart should I send an abandoned cart
email or should I not because it's
always been the deao that like yes you
should and it should be sent within 30
minutes and all that until they get
trained for it and then they're take
just taking advantage of the system you
know yeah I just I just saw that uh if
you if you cancel your grammarly account
they send you an email for 50% off so
it's like I told everyone on our team go
cancel your grammarly and then sign back
up because you get 50% off but you you
know people learn to the and then you
exploit the loop right so so what we're
working on on the AI side is agentic AI
so agentic AI is AI that has agency so
in other words it's able to make
decisions there's kind of two parts of
this one is it's able to make decisions
on its own so when you're creating
content essentially it is making
decisions right because it's if you
prompt it for something it is
determining what it should feedback and
people are used to this with llms so I
ask it to write my you know science
paper for school and it makes decisions
about what words to put on the page it's
already doing that we're just allowing
it to make decisions now like again
email or SMS 8: am or 6 PM you know like
there's a lot of decisions on what
should I send who should I send what
should be in the content and all that
stuff we're allowing it to make those
decisions the second piece is have have
you looked into like a gentic AI at all
as far as like multi-agent systems and
all that I've explored it everybody that
I've seen talk about like multi-agent
systems I'm like this is bogus there's
no way this works yet it works I'm like
there's no way this is the working thing
but I think what you guys are doing in a
tighter environment probably actually
works because everybody else I'm like
nah it's not going to order food for me
and get all this done at least not least
not in any way I want yeah yeah there's
I mean there's a lot of ways you can
approach it the one the one example that
most people seem to get is like you
prompt an llm and it gives you a return
and you're like nah it's not what I want
I kind of want it more like this and you
go back and forth with it a bunch and
it's like could you create the agent
that knows what you want and the other
one that does the prompt and then have
the two communicate to like refine it
before it gets back to you so that what
you get is closer to the result you want
so it's still on a micro I mean you're
still essentially just breaking apart a
larger project into micro micro steps
yeah I mean I'm usings to do that kind
of stuff yeah and that's what's
interesting is to me it's like the
fantasy football analogy like every
player isn't good at everything so it's
like I want specialized players who can
do special things and then come back to
me because what you see when you start
to build promps is if I prom if I make
my prom too if I'm asking for too much
what I get back is garbage so I need to
like build a team of focus things so how
we do it on the customer service side
and the customer engagement side is we
build an agent per user and really we
could break that down finer so I I broke
one down earlier where you could do one
that's a a pricing analyst and you can
have a pricing analyst per project per
per product that you have you know what
are the competitors offer for this
product what are similar products what
are you know fine-tune the pricing for
this product right because I'm not
limited by once you do that you
replicate it across your products I'm
not limited by like physical people and
chairs for us it's for each user so I
want a user who understands you really
well so like I'm using I I freaking love
rocket money right now like that's my
new addiction is I'm checking my rocket
money app like times a day I don't even
know what that is it's a fintech so it
it connects to your bank account it'll
tell you subscriptions you have how much
you spent this month does it compared to
last month like just Mt mobile or not
not mint mobile it's a new mint yeah
yeah yeah oh yeah and I think what mint
went under right so they're cing a bunch
of people who left mint yeah so exactly
and there's there's a bunch of them
similar it probably actually works the
way mint was supposed to or the way we
were hoping would work yeah no and it it
was one of those where like too I love
like how how long do you have to wait
before you get your aha moment you know
like before somebody really time to
Value like before somebody really sees
value and it's like the minute I got it
and downloaded it caught a couple
subscriptions that like i' had been
meaning to cancel forever like so it
like paid for itself in the first like
five minutes but like why do people use
one one example we use is like why do
people use an app like rocket money some
people it's to save some people it's to
you know feel in control of their
finances there's there's a lot of
reasons why people use an app like this
um and then there's also like some
people are saving for why save like is
it for your kids for college is it for
vacation is it for and then and when you
can sus that out and figure out exactly
why somebody is using something exactly
why somebody's engaging then speaking to
that is so much more powerful because
now I can talk to that person with the
thing that they care about so what we do
is like a one toone agent so this agent
would watch me would watch the actions
that I do would serve up recommendations
see if I click them or not click them
and then learn from it and use that for
new action so if you send me something
that's like for example right now they
have something on there for car
insurance I'm sure they have a partner
that's car insurance save money on car
insurance it's right in there it looks
like the app it doesn't look like an ad
but I'm sure they have a partner that
they try to drive business to for car
insurance okay if you see that I'm not
engaging with that should you not
replace that with something else you
know like right now it's just static on
there but like I I pay way too much for
car insurance but I live in the middle
of nowhere where they're deer and I hit
them occasionally
and I really like my car in I'm not
going to switch so it's like if you
learn that because you test and you
prompt and you see and now I change the
product for you and oh you interact with
this and not this thing and okay I can
learn that at a user level now whereas
previously our products were very fixed
you know we had like fixed categories
and fixed things like that so that's
that's where we see the future comes in
this like I said intelligent
distribution Beyond just content
creation of like I have infinite content
I don't have to put an auto insurance ad
there I can put put anything there what
do I put there it's almost like
multivariate testing down to the
individual level the problem with
multivariate testing is you need so much
data in order to prove that one's better
than the other but
AI I'm guessing your a amp is using what
it's learned across the board from
people so it's using some of that data
but it's also using just like common
like some common sense like hey they've
seen it three times like I don't need a
I don't need more than that to prove
statistic they're probably not going to
click on it because for this type of ad
I know a bunch of other people if they
didn't click on it in the first three
times like the likel here they're going
to click on it 20 times is unlikely so
I'm just G to switch it to something
else now um do you do you give is that
how it works so so this is actually
really funny so I work with pretty much
all data scientists and I assume
especially when they first hired me it
was like all data scientists and you
would assume that they would be all over
statistical significance and they're not
like they could care less about stat I
shouldn't say that well maybe I should
about statistical significance here's
the example though here's the example if
I want to know what my wife as wants for
dinner I can go ask my entire
neighborhood right and I beyond the
whole neighborhood I could go ask my
whole city I could ask the entire world
what my wife would like for dinner like
how much statistical significance do you
want but I could just go ask her and the
answer is probably more accurate so
really it's about the quality of your
control group the quality of your sample
I should say not statistical
significance and really the rate at
which you have to make decisions to
personalize like this statistical
significance doesn't make sense so right
now it's like should we do green button
or blue button and we put up green
button for some and we put up blue
button for some we run this test for a
long time and then we say Okay x amount
of people have seen green button or blue
button the blue button has a 6% lift so
we're going to go with it and there's a
number of problems with that one is
we've shown people the bad example
forever right because we're running this
test so we have to have a one is the
loser so you've just shown the loser to
a bunch of people for a long time
secondly like just because you didn't
know it was the loser so it was a great
system well yeah well and I've seen some
pretty big gains with cro before across
marketing channels but of course you can
only do it on certain things in certain
ways in order to get the gains from it
because but like deeper down in the
funnel where I wish it would work there
just was never enough traffic down
deeper in the funnel for it for you to
be able to do it even though you could
be killing yourself down there you know
but not enough traffic yeah and the
second well yeah and the second thing
though is if it does 6% better like is
that is that really better or there
people who like the other version like
who you're not serving now because you
have to pick one or another so what we
do is we have a whole technical paper on
it but we do a onetoone control group
matching so the point is when you have
enough data you can find people who are
similar enough because again if I'm not
just collecting points when you do that
test that basic AB test you have like no
data on visitors pretty much sometimes
that's a problem cuz it's it's like
sometimes am I testing mobile users or
web users like I've seen things swing
because right you built something but
you built it for web but you're testing
it on mobile users too like by accident
so when you have all of this data you s
send the agents out and say find me an
duplicate user and it depends on what
you're testing if I'm testing something
like what time I send a message I want
two people with incredibly similar time
usage patterns if I'm testing like a
specific product I want people who have
the same purchase history like you know
you've Buy bought the same products if
I'm testing right it depends what you're
testing what you want you grab two users
and you test one not the other I message
one not the other did it did it work did
they respond did they not respond and
then I'm continuing to update a
probabilistic model for each individual
user as I'm going so it's like you know
I I want to find people with the same
approximate probability that they will
respond if I send something and then I
send this and did they respond or did
they not I test the other one so we're
doing this one toone control matching
which is how we don't need millions and
millions of users we just need to make
sure that in your inventory if you want
to call it that there are users who
exhibit similar patterns for the thing
that we're testing can you do this on
websites without people logging in or is
this only work in a login environment be
we need it over Al there are two things
you can learn like U so we we talk about
cold start problem are you familiar with
the cold start problem like what do you
recommend somebody who's never done
anything before ever you know that's
where most recommender systems stall you
just see default until you do something
once you do something I can send person
you start with the most popular things
across the board right yeah so most
people do yes so other things though
it's like are the most popular things
the highest converting things very often
not yeah it's I mean it it kind of works
that's what YouTube does every time I go
to YouTube on a new browser or something
that's never been touched before it's
always the most random stuff it's like
Mr Beast some other it's always whatever
the heck is trending right now but in in
multiple categories because it doesn't
know so just throwing crap on the wall
that's the most popular with everybody
else which is usually nothing I would
watch except for Mr Beast because who
doesn't watch Mr Beast well so yeah well
it depends for now if you're looking at
e-commerce for example popularity may
not equal conversions so my point is do
I want to show you the most viewed or do
I want to show you the most bought or do
I want to show you the highest
likelihood of buy versus view like
fewest views highest buys like I don't
most people don't see this but the
people who do Buy
like there's a lot of complexity in that
but my point is by collecting all this
data we are able to personalize more
right from the get-go so we can do that
because we can say things like you do
know things about people who first visit
your website even if they don't log in
and we can p match you with a similar
person because of maybe it's just the
time you visit first time visit X time
you know or maybe it's location what
whatever little breadcrumbs we have
allow us to personalize more than just
going hey this is is generally the most
popular thing but most of our stuff this
is why we focus app based and why we
started app based because the data you
have on an app is so much more than
what's available via web and you work
mostly with apps or do you work with
e-commerce too mostly with apps but I
mean like e-commerce apps so we have
e-commerce and food delivery and fintech
and subscription and all that stuff is
rocket money one of your clients then
not officially not to say anything quite
yet oh man that's so man that's
exciting what if you're customizing a
lot on the app there has to be
parameters of some kind otherwise it
could be throwing all kinds of like your
app can end up looking like spaghetti if
everything's a variable how do you
control your app from becoming spaghetti
you have to have like defined areas of
like what can go where and then it just
kind of decides within those categories
of sections of the app in order to keep
their because there has to be somewhat
there has to be some similarities
between how you're using it and your
friend's using it otherwise when you
recommend it and your friend downloads
it and it's not the same experience then
it that that friend will stop referring
it so there has to be some similarities
between how they're using it it it is
actually really funny so there is a uh
one of our CEOs has a I mean you can do
this with pretty much anybody though
it's funny you go open the same you go
open the same app as a friend of yours
and they look identical even if it's an
app that you've used for a while like
except for the YouTubes the Spotify I
like the big the big players take your
average one lately I've been playing
with like food and grocery delivery you
open it and have your friend open it and
it doesn't even matter if your order
history is different it's like the same
except for like maybe one recommender
slider might be different my wife was
looking at Thrive cart and it had
Mediterranean diet and I'm like oh have
you like I don't I like Mediterranean
food but we usually don't cook it we
don't do have you done this why is this
recommended for you and she's like I I
don't know maybe based on my history
blah blah blah I went and downloaded it
to Mediterranean diet I'm like it's just
the flavor of the month you know so half
the time what's recommended isn't even
really recommended so the parameters
this is what's very interesting to me
when GPT came out we added an option
that would let you so we were more
heavily focused on messaging at the
moment we added an option that would let
you generate all the messages that you
would want to send somebody and we even
put permission controls in the end so
like you will approve every variant of
every message that goes out so you don't
have to be worried about you know if
we're going to bogus send out you know
either gibberish or something offensive
or something nobody uses it nobody uses
it so the constraints that we have it's
like self-inflicted by users they want
to write all their own content they want
to create it I I imagine it'll change in
the future as trust with AI improves and
stuff but right now how we work is the
agent watches the user and then it
determines when should we send a message
based on you know usage patterns with an
app when do you log in when do you look
what do you tend to click when do you
tend to click all that stuff it figures
out when then it figures out what
channel should I SMS should I push
should I whatever you know these are all
decisions that humans have made with
flowcharts before it doesn't make sense
at an individual user level my wife
clicks SMS like marketing SMS messages
any brand that sends me an SMS I
uninstall immediately right we're two
very different people don't treat us the
same way also stop sending them to my
wife because then she buys things but
then
then once we determine the channel so we
have the timing we have the channel then
we determine what message should you see
or for example in the product experience
if you log in what should you see right
now our safeguards our guide reels are
that the brands are generating all those
options so the advantage is you
basically build a Content Library and it
can even be like your blog post and
summaries to your blog post or product
descriptions or you know the way you
talk about your product or what should I
even just send you period messages about
for food delivery apps like for
breakfast or lunch or dinner you can
generate those but instead of like
fixing them in space so like here is the
message that I sent to everybody on
Tuesday at 8:30 the agent says okay I
think this user responds to you know hey
this this guy this guy is a cheap skate
like he loves to save money he doesn't
want to spend money on anything so when
I talk about hey you should buy lunch I
should talk about the value of buying
lunch and how it's really saving you
money instead of just getting crap out
of your pantry and blah blah blah BL
blah right as opposed to somebody who
cares about health as opposed to so the
agent then dives into that Content
Library pulls the content that the brand
has made that is available and then
populates it so that's how we prevent
one way we prevent it from you know your
product experience
being completely
UNC being able to push it to the point
where it's where it can really change a
lot across the app yet they're just plug
your users are just plugging into little
sections of their app and no one's like
giving it full throttle control at least
not wor about yet yeah it's interesting
though because a huge you can make a
huge impact by affecting little things I
mean we've seen this right that's what
AB test show yeah except for what I've
learned is I can actually this is cool
I've tried to write this up in a post
but it's hard to write it up in a way
that like makes sense as opposed to
talking through it an AB test can give
you a step change I was here I went up
to here right because I like here's my
conversion rate and then here but then
it stops it doesn't like it's it's a
step ch
I was at 8% now I'm here right and now I
do another AB test and I hope I get to
here but I probably end up here maybe
I'll end up here you know like I
basically like walking upstairs and the
thing that stops me from the next step
is me I have to write another AB test I
have to do the next thing I have to test
and then I'll move up to the next step
what AI in tweaking little things allows
you to do is really create an
exponential curve that's improving over
time because I'm I'm testing I'm testing
I'm testing I'm testing and the
individual user level incrementally to
improve it so the difference is like I
said if we did a food if you did a if
you did a workout app people care about
working out and they're passionate about
working out why well some people it's
because Beach season is almost here like
so I need to look good some people it's
because they deal with chronic illness
some people it's because I need mental
Clarity for work and I just I feel more
you know if I'm working out then I feel
sharper there are so many reasons why
someone works out and if you can tap
that reason like all of a sudden they're
incredibly engaged because oh yeah oh
yeah oh yeah I do have that wedding
coming up you know I do need to look
good for that wedding or high school
reunion or whatever and then the kicker
is though once that event is over if it
is event driven then somebody like Tunes
out right well I did the wedding that
was fun like so how do I keep that user
engaged now they've changed right
they're no longer the event driven
person they're the hey wasn't that great
didn't you notice your job performance
was better so even by tweak
little features of an app little
headlines or what blogs we recommend or
what thing to align with those user
values huge impact huge huge so you
don't it's kind of funny you don't need
like every single element of everything
to be incredibly personalized although I
agree with you I think it's going that
way um at this point it's funny those if
I can catch those softer user
preferences and pivot to those like you
already see massive massive Improvement
what's the minimum viable audience you
need on an app let's say like a weight
like a weight tracking app of some kind
like what how how small of an audience
do you need for this to be viable or how
how big does it have to be yeah I mean
you just need enough redundant users
that you feel like you can make an
educated decision you know that the AI
feels like it can make an educated
decision on a user because that control
group we talked about so the smallest
apps that we work with are like 5 to
7,000 users um which is monthly active
yeah and then our largers are you know
20 to 50 million monthly active users
100 million monthly active users so not
what we've seen is it just takes longer
if you have a smaller group because
there's less learning but you really
have to look at current state because
again the current state of like I just
blast everybody one thing it really
doesn't take much to improve that what I
love about what you guys are doing is
that you're bringing like Netflix level
customization down to like smaller
players and we all want that as users of
all these apps we all want that we're
tired of seeing stupid messaging we're
tired of seeing opening up a dashboard
for a tool and you being like I like how
many dashboards are actually relevant
almost none of them right because they
just they're not unless you can
customize it to what you want they're
generally bogus dashboards I mean when's
the last time you saw wordpress's
dashboard yeah never because never go to
that page no one does no one ever has
it's a bogus dashboard but a lot of apps
are like that where it's like they just
random stuff on there it's not doesn't
matter to you so that's that's exciting
I'm excited to see where that that goes
um and where you guys are at with it now
because I thought personal I thought
this level of thing was going to be like
maybe a few years away but you guys are
already crushing it but bring it out
there live
so yeah my next question for you is the
head of growth for this company I'm sure
you're experimenting with AI a lot in
order to drive amps audience in order to
get more conversions drive people
through the pipeline tell me a little
bit about what your experiments look
like internally as the head of growth
there for us it's actually really funny
we're finding that we've created things
that are products in and of themselves
but we didn't realize it as we created
it so one thing that's been very unique
is I've worked for a lot of like
traditional Industries where the market
exists this is one where when we stepped
in there was there was not really
anything like it and it's funny because
we were you know we were preg GPT and
the data scientists brought me on and
were teaching me all this all all of the
new kind of things I I wasn't familiar
with right and it's data science is like
a whole another language but I found it
to be fascinating quite fun so there
marketing teams were very very gunshy31
a lot of it has been educating users for
like what do we do and where does where
do we fit like it's like you show up
with an automobile and all the people
who are I said automobile while I feel
old you show you show up with a car and
all the people who like shoe the horses
are like what do we do now you know and
you're like I'm not getting rid of like
an an industry here you have just
different work so we've talked about
like for example you brought up Netflix
but how Netflix has taggers annotators
people who do tax product taxonomy and
how product taxonomy how do we classify
certain things is so much more valuable
in an AI world than it was pre AI so a
lot of the challenges that we Face are
like how do we help people understand
what this new world looks like which is
like this conversation that we're having
right as opposed to the world that they
were used to and how is there a place
for you in it um and things like that so
what category does it sit in what
category does amp take up yeah so it's
it's funny because at first we thought
we were more of an engagement platform
and why we thought we were more of an
engagement platform is because typically
in modern companies that's where you
build your flowchart you know of like
day one send this think of any like even
people who are just used to like sending
in ESP right you're just sending out
emails you segment your audience and you
say day one send this email day three
send this email day five send this email
so we thought well we're in that gate
because we we do take that information
and we do send the message we don't
actually send it we connect to whatever
service you're using that sends it but
we make the determination of what should
be sent to whom we put ourselves in that
bucket and then we learned actually it's
not the right bucket because again there
are engagement platforms already that do
the sending we don't do the
deliverability the physical sending
semi- recently we found out we are
actually in the customer data platform
space so are you familiar with the CDP
vaguely I mean I've I've definitely
heard of it bumping around in Tech yeah
yeah so so for those that aren't what a
CDP is is basically a place to aggregate
all your customer data so you have a
data warehouse where all of your data
goes but then from the marketing side
you want to have specific data about
customers and then you can run queries
to say Okay I want to send a campaign
out to everyone who's visited in the
past week but hasn't bought anything in
the past week right that's really common
what should I do I should send them all
discount or something so I go to my CDP
and I build that audience give me
everybody who hasn't visited you know
who hasn't bought in the past two weeks
but has visited great and then I use
that to send a campaign what what we
find out is that we do that but at the
individual user level and then we will
say for this user send this message
because yes they haven't bought but they
typically buy when they have a discount
as opposed to send this message because
this user hasn't bought but they
typically care about quality you know or
like High reviews or whatever and so we
found that we fit in the we brand
ourselves as an agentic CDP so we fit in
the CDP bucket but whereas traditional
cdps allow you to query we see the query
as one of the biggest constraints you
can only query one thing at a time when
you're writing a query to find an
audience you're missing out on all the
other queries that you could write and
then we're making the determination of
what to send and feeding that to the
engagement platform I've always had a
hard time with the whole premise around
segmentation like I understood it why it
was important but in execution I'm like
I've worked across multiple marketing
teams now no does this because it's a
freaking pain to like try to figure out
what even these segments want and if
you're doing it regularly you're doing
it halfhazard with no end goal as far as
what you're doing to like think about
the Journey of how somebody comes in and
what they're doing and if they've lapsed
what happens then so I've generally been
one who's like customized the heck out
of drip campaigns right I was a huge
infusion soft user before they started
to suck right where I had like this very
complex onboarding with like all these
variables of what they would get or not
get and then what that would happen at
each stage and if they disengaged at a
stage what would happen where they would
go that always made more sense and that
was kind of like the inbow marketing
dream that HubSpot built hardly anybody
does it that way but it always made more
sense to me than segmenting because you
build it but it's like I kind of see
where you you're going where you guys
are going with amp as like the whole new
level from that like that was good but
it's even better if you could just
personalize it to the individual instead
of mapping it to the journey because
different people as like a my friend
Ashley fos says on LinkedIn all the time
she's always like dude nobody goes
through a straight funnel but I'm like
yeah but it's better than sending out
random segments reacting to some down
like you didn't make enough Revenue so
you're G to go pull that random segment
where you know you can get some Revenue
because that's just reactionary before
the journey it was at least more
predictable because you can run people
there through there as cohorts and even
split test it and do some cool stuff but
with AI now I'm like oh my gosh like
this is It's like a whole new game how
hard is it to build though how hard is
the AI to build yeah because building
like for me to build all these Journeys
gosh it took a lot of time you build one
but it was worth it because you'd write
a five email sequence and maybe you had
a few different pads that people could
get in there and where it would go great
and it was worth putting a lot of time
and effort into it because that that
Journey might last for a couple of years
you know and it was worth it it wasn't a
one-time thing it was an
asset but how long but it took a long
time to build it out for every segment
for all the contingencies if they fall
out of this part here's how we're going
to re-engage them here if they're in
this segment like how we re-engage them
there depending on what Journey part of
the journey they're on took a long time
to build years to build it all out how
long does it take to like really get amp
included in all the different sections
that you would recommend for customers
yeah people people laugh but it's like
couple weeks Integrations Integrations
cake but here's here's here's the
difference though it's like we feel like
or we think we know the right thing to
send even for like a first email
onboarding hi welcome take a look around
here are all the features we offer right
but it's like people pick our product or
people pick an app or whatever for very
different reasons like why do I use the
Lowe's app because I do a lot of
handywork why do I use the Lowe's app
because I want to know what aisle
something is in I never buy it on the
app I want to feel it in the store I
just want to know what aisle everything
is in cuz when I get to the store I like
all right where's the you know a
specific like tool and where the heck is
it like that is the only reason that I
use the Lowe's app because I want to
figure out and it's in the store I only
use it when I'm physically standing in
the store to go where the heck is that
like that's the only time I use it the
reason why people use things is so
drastically different that building a
welcome campaign or even a re-engagement
campaign like it's so specific to the
person that to me I get like paralysis
like decision paralysis when you can
send somebody everything what do you
send them so what we find is it's it's
fun it there's a clicking point with new
customers that is so much fun to watch
and I don't know if you've had this with
your other jobs but when they start
using amp you're like okay listen you
have to break them in that mindset of
like day one this day two this day three
this no it's not the sequential thing it
is what do you want to tell somebody why
would they like your app so like we
worked with a really small climate
friendly cooking app was a cooking app
the goal of the app even though they're
not like overt about it what I mean is
they're not like you know every every
meal doesn't have a carbon count or
anything like that but it's just like
this is really good food and the recipes
that we have are climate friendly why
would somebody use that app some people
it's because of climate friendly options
some people it's because it's majority
vegetarian so it's like maybe they want
some more variety in like their
vegetarian offerings maybe it's people
who want to see what vegetables are
seasonal maybe it's people who just want
to be more healthy and they know that
this food is generally more healthy like
you have a whole spectrum of people so
when we start working with people on
messaging and product we're like
the goal is find those people and this
is a good you asked about things I use
GPT for all the time yep the first thing
I do is I say give me 25 reasons I asked
GPT give me a list of 25 reasons why
people use whatever app and if the app
is too small I give it a competitor you
know but it's like literally just do
that and it'll give me literally 25
reasons why people use every single app
and if you compare that to what a
product current what a company's
marketing department currently runs for
their Market
they speak to like one maybe two of
those you know they assume that the
reason that you use you know I'll just
say rocket money for example is because
you want to save money yeah but maybe
but maybe also not right some people
it's that feeling of control like we
talked about I want to be in control of
my fin it's safety it's security it's
this it's that or maybe it's like
investing I want to track how my
investments are doing not my savings you
know some people it's like I have a a
bunch of debt some people have no debt
right so anyway I full those list of 25
and then we start writing messages for
all those
25 like 25 different personas and then
what's interesting is like sometimes
what you would think of as a winback
like so a customer churned I should send
them a discount yeah well maybe that's
the exact wrong thing to do for a
customer I should send them a product
recommendation yeah right so in other
words you're not with our with with amp
You're Building those different messages
and building those different experiences
and all that different messaging but
you're not having to attach it in a
rigid flowchart and that's where all the
time is taken up is determining day one
this is what I'm going send day two and
there's all this pressure of like I have
to write the perfect headline I have to
write the perfect subject line I have to
write the perfect message no you don't
because any message you write is perfect
for someone it's finding the someone
that is perfect for so you also see a
lot less people are less intimidated
about having to be perfect because the
AI for we've had a lot of examples where
the AI is like that message is a dud who
and it it you could see it tries to send
it to a few users and like nobody ever
clicks it so it'll test it occasionally
but for the large part it gets binned um
and it just never uses that piece of
content anymore yeah so what we have is
you know usually people like I said
customers hit that clicking point where
they're like I could do a campaign for
this now or this now or this now and
creating it doesn't mean where do I slot
it do I slot it on day5 do I slot it in
for these type of users do I pull it no
you just dump it in the library and let
the AI tell you hey hey this is really
good for you know this specific users
and that's just informational like oh
that's cool but you just continue to let
it do its thing so yeah so it does it
takes a fraction of the time we've had
so many people surprised at how quick it
is because a lot of where you spend your
time is like should I send it at 8:00 am
or 6 PM or should there be a 4H hour
delay between these two or how long you
know and then AB testing of should I
should I send it 8 amm or 6 PM like I'll
set up an AB test should the color
should the button be green or blue or
what you know a lot of that you don't
have to do anymore you just have to
create like new ideas for campaigns
which is honestly the fun
part other than amp itself what are some
of your favorite AI tools to use maybe
besides Chad GPT too I was going to say
GPT Dolly um I use a lot of the a lot of
the big and basic ones um on my side I
haven't I'm trying to think of some of
the best ones Riverside I know where're
what I what are we using this ister this
is zaster Riverside I am so impressed
with like as far as generating clips for
podcasts and summaries and not hopefully
you're not being sponsored by Zen Caster
but
that so I was thinking prei like we we
tried to do a podcast and it was so much
work like I know I'm preaching to the
choir but it's like you know pulling
clips and trying to find the best and
then the transcripts and then this so I
was using like V to make the transcript
for me so I export everything from
Riverside to V and get the transcript
and all stuff and Riverside you know
most most things when you're like here's
something of Interest like I want to
pull a clip of Interest go find me
something of Interest like they're
garbage Riverside does a phenomenal job
that's good last I checked Riverside
stuff and it was only three months ago I
thought his Clips were bad I was like
but you know these things they get
better with time so yeah interesting
lesson though it's it's like you don't
have to be perfect like with a lot of AI
stuff and this is a message for
Riverside whoever too you don't have to
be perfect you just have to allow
customization cuz if I watch that clip
and I'm like wow it's not great but what
was just first 5 seconds or the last 5
Seconds right it's always like you're
changing just the slight tweaks at the
front or the end of it usually yeah if
you can't if then it's trash but if you
allow people to like tweak it a little
bit based on what they like then it's
good the other one just for fun is like
Opus Clips I don't know if you've used
them oh yeah I've used Opus I mean for
Clips I current Zen cter has its own
clipping tool which is my favorite but
it's not my favorite because of the a it
does a good job of picking the clips the
the thing Zen cter did that was better
than everybody else is it allowed me to
oneclick publish it because if you have
one good clip well mult usually after an
episode like this I'll probably have
like five seven Clips great it's a
freaking pain to go and take each clip
and schedule it across to at least three
or four or five platforms but Zen cter
is just like publish now or Auto post
which kind of schedules it out kind of
buffers it and I'm like for that alone I
like Zen casters because I could just be
like Arch
I can edit or I can I can schedule it
put it in the queue and then I I forget
about it it just puts it everywhere it
also prees the copy for it too I was
gonna ask is that decent or is it kind
of crap the pre-write pre-written copy
it's at least customized for the clip
but no it's not what I would write it's
it's it's generic vanilla chat GPT
generated based on the little tiny
transcript from the clip but you know
what I don't care because who freaking
reads that on Instagram YouTube shorts
or Tik Tok nobody yeah but it needs to
be there
yeah yeah yeah no but that's what's
interesting for me is it's like all the
content somebody recommended what was it
it was one for emails and like make your
emails better and I'm like yeah kind of
garbage kind of like linkedin's like try
rewrite with AI I I feel like in some
ways the content creation tools exist
have like ruined actual AI for a lot of
people because they're like yeah I've
tried it I've tried AI it doesn't work
and I'm like you have not no you just
click the rewrite my post LinkedIn you
got to learn how to prompt better I'm
making the little course that I'm making
right now to help people like you just
haven't it's there's a skill to it and
people who spend more time on it get
better results with AI yeah yeah but
that to to your point too it's not just
generation though this is what's really
interesting to me content generation is
certainly a piece but distribution is
what matters because if you had
something that instead of autoschedule
post was like you knew who the audience
was that was most interested and what
time to show it to them right you're
leaning on YouTube's Ai and Instagrams
and everyone else's to make those
content determinations for you right but
if you had your own audience if you had
your own you know Dan chz Empire you
would want to create that for yourself
instead of like here's one thing because
another point is we see this with
companies all the time content reuse
something you recorded like a year ago
might be exactly what somebody needs
right now yep gosh that that disturbs me
more than anything else like the fact
that I've written some killer content
two years ago and it's just as good
today but nobody even remembers it and
it needs to come back it that destroys
me so we put this is one of my favorite
applications so and it's such a quick
win and I just love it so we'll load in
blogs a company's blogs into their
messaging so this works really really
well it works for everybody but for
subscription apps like the workout app I
brought up so they have so as an example
one workout app has like exercises like
how to do certain exercises and then
they have blogs on like different body
parts you know so like some of them are
exercise based like how to do a squat
some of them are like leg day you know
like a body day but then they have other
ones on like nutrition right blog these
are all like to your point really good
valuable blogs nutrition hasn't changed
right except for if you want to get like
tin foil hat we can talk about why the
food pyramid looked like it did back in
the day because we were told to eat
bread nons stop anyway um I've heard
those stories too so and then they I
live next to battle which is like
Kellogg's Kellogg's home base so I know
all of it too yeah but then there are
also ones on like pain management right
and there are ones on like training for
marathons so my point is they have all
these different they have all this great
content so what we say is loaded into
messaging write messages that link to
those blogs for different users for
different reasons and their blog traffic
takes off like because I'm reusing these
blogs that are like I don't care if it's
4 years old it's still applicable
because when you're looking at a
subscription app you're like how do I
keep people engaged right so if you're a
workout app and somebody gets injured
they stop using their workout app so you
could build in some logic that hey if we
have a user and they were active and
then go dormant for whatever then send
injury blogs but that's like that takes
work to set up that whole infrastructure
instead raai might learn hey you know
we've seen this pattern in other users
before and now I'm seeing it with this
user so therefore start sending injury
blog and we start to see traffic tick up
on all these different blog types and
stuff and then people get re-engaged
because again if you hurt yourself you
might think well it can't work out but
then if I can give you a tip on like how
to get back to the gym faster because
you know here's how you deal with
shoulder recovery surgery Boom everybody
wins so man I can't wait for that to be
available to like small players like me
because I've made gosh I've made so many
cont so much content blog posts I've got
hundreds of podcasts like hundreds of
podcasts I mean not even just on my own
podcast but I could pull them all in
because they're all out there they're
all danas they're Team D but I there's
no there's no way to currently do that I
can I have a membership area where I put
all my courses into my best content my
best playbooks but I there's no way to
like even drip it out via email or text
message or whatever the heck I got
people subscribed on you know there's no
way that there's that's not currently
possible with what I have but I wish it
were there's so many quick wins too just
like redundancy elimination like if I'm
tracking per user then I know okay I've
already sent this and they didn't
respond and individual level cuz right
now you might say hey this was great and
I wrote it two years ago I'm going to
send it again and somebody might have
been like I've seen that thing you know
which is always our fear of like
alienating one person it's going to
happen but either way yeah yeah to me
that's like the quickest win that is so
much fun to do is taking you know every
apps are you are you using that for your
own marketing then you're eating your
own dog food and using your own tool I
wish so much I wish so much that we
could do it I said for prospecting we
need to turn it into a prospecting tool
because it's like so good at like
customer engagement and re-engagement
for these big apps with content I'm like
we need to apply the same thing to like
outgoing sales emails and stuff but
they're already players in that market
so so we get to live I just mean there's
enough people who are advancing in that
area like in in sales prospecting that
they'll probably be there our Niche is
oh for more yeah for like cold Outreach
I'm thinking about warm Outreach just
for newsletters people like in your
audience I mean like audience plus is
kind of working on this
but not like that not like I think
you'll start to see it yeah it's it's
reinforcement so it's reinforcement
learning and its contextual banded
algorithm I think that it'll get it'll
get much more common what so here's
here's what was interesting to me so I
have an electrical engineering
background long story I did medical
device engineering for 10 years I won't
go there if you look at who's built
mtech like look at who builds almost any
mtech company and it is computer
scientists computer Engineers computer
scientist and once you see it you're
like you can't unsee it because it's
like I had computer science courses it
looks like a computer science interface
if this then that right that is straight
out of the Playbook and that's how all
of them are built so now we have this
like wave of data science data science
has always been there but it's been like
this like nice to have like okay here's
a cute little project can you work on
this data science team now it's starting
to be more dominant that people are like
wow there's okay there's some serious
depth of things we can do in data
science here that are well beyond if
this then that you're starting to see
the next round of tools our tools an
example founded by three data scientists
PhD Anthropologist PhD neuroscientists
data scientists um they don't build
things like computer Engineers so it's
like the interface is absolutely totally
different um the the way that it acts is
totally different so I think if a sales
prospecting tool or I've even seen this
for like I was looking at HR because we
do churn prediction and churn prevention
but in instead of like the difference
there's always this like cliff and it's
like churn churn prevention all right
here's the users who are churning where
the cliff is is like okay so send them
all this one message you know what I
mean like no like you want to know if
somebody's churning and churning is
different for each user some users churn
after their first visit you know and you
can tell because like oh they've done
this action this tends to be turn anyway
you're going to start to see these tools
pop up in other areas I'm sure that are
built by data scientists with a data
science methodology and mentality that
are so much different than the ones that
are built by computer Engineers today so
I I think you're going to start to see
it everywhere it's going to become a lot
more normal um and it won't look like
the flowchart because the flowchart was
the best we could do at the time with
the computer engineering background you
know creating creating these things it's
going to look different for every
industry yeah my mind was instantly like
oh HR oh shoot you can track employee
retention all that kind of stuff but
then my mind went from there really
quick to like the government using it
I'm like ah crap we're going to be in
like Minority Report
status yeah yeah all right can't go
there that's not what this show's about
I'm all about the more practical stuff
like what can we do now rather than
theorize about the future I think yeah
HR is an interesting one because I've
looked into it too and the the data that
they have this is the problem you see is
the data that they have is all over the
place it's all in different systems it's
not correlated to anything and it's it's
but it is this is a data science problem
right this is why things are happening
the way that they are and data science
has taken over in a lot of ways because
it's step one is you need to actually
have data that you can feed into model
that can then produce findings and
results for you yep it's like all the
data was always there I mean remember
talking about the fire hose back when
Twitter was like a thing like the API
was open to everybody everybody's like
we don't know what to do with all this
information I'm actually really excited
about grock the AI because of what it
will be able to do with that information
sometime in the future I I just tested
it out last week paid for the premium
for a month just to just to test grock
because I'm like theoretically like it
has the best real-time insights into
what the heck's going on over the world
but its ability to find the right thing
not very good yeah for me it's I'm
pretty confident it will be someday so
I'm paying attention to that for me it's
like just watch though watch though the
agency is where we're going to see the
next shift so I went I went to a data
science conference a couple maybe like a
month or two ago just cuz it was near me
in Michigan and nothing is near me so
I'm like I'm going to go to this the
output the Holy
Grail is a dashboard so like all the
data center I'll talking what do we do
we build a dashboard like for management
like literally and I'm like wow this is
going to change so fast because again
our chief data scientist always says
you're never looking at a minority
you're looking at the or sorry at a
majority you're looking at the largest
minority so anytime you do an AB test
anytime you do anything and you're like
this is what everybody loves this is our
most successful option it doesn't mean
it's the majority of your customers
users whatever who like it it means it's
the biggest minority that you can
measure actually like it so any
dashboard you produce any findings any
anything is always at the aggregate
level it's either at the aggregate level
which is like useful a lot of missing
right because if I say this is great for
8% of people that means I'm missing 92
or it's at the individual level where we
as humans can't do anything with that I
can't do anything for one person it just
doesn't scale so what you start to see
is now if I let a AI take over then the
individual matters and the AI can act on
the individual level and just report to
me the aggregate sure but the the
dashboard is just a helpful feature to
idea to see where Trends are going um as
opposed to like where I'm making like
super huge broad sweeping decisions that
affect everybody dashboards give you the
illusion of control yes but only I've
made useful dashboards for myself and
people like looking at them but I'm like
you don't even know what you're looking
for I do because I built it I know what
I'm looking for and why I built it but
generally most of the time I see
Executives looking at dashboards I'm
like you don't know what you're looking
for yeah you just like the report on it
and most of them are like these like
like stupid stupid like widgets that I'm
like that tells you nothing because you
need the context of the number that came
before it and the history of it and even
to be able to make a relative guess of
if that number is good or not so oh well
it is what it is but I'm excited about
where it's going with AI and being able
to turn it Forward James thank you so
much it's been a fun nerdy conversation
to dive into about personalization man
I've learned so much about where it's at
now and where where this could be going
in the future I'm just hoping what you
guys are doing like trickles down a
little F farther it comes out a little
bit more because I'm excited for it to
hit all these apps because it's it's
coming what any you have anything going
on that you want to promote like a
webinar or a video that people should
watch to learn more about AMP yeah I can
we just spoke it was was a lot of fun we
just spoke at Ma which is mobile apps
unlocked which is a big conference um
and even if you don't have an app we
dove into Spotify how Spotify does their
growth Loop right uh they have 6,000
genres so how they why do they have
6,000 genres why does that make sense
and and we dive into Netflix's tag and
kind of all that stuff and then show
examples of personalization through chat
Bots and recommender systems and all
that stuff so it's a nerdy it's me and
our chief data scientist um nerdy but
accessible so I can I can send you the
link for that but that was we got great
feedback most time you go to conference
and you hear talks that are like so high
level that are like retention is
important you shouldn't let customers
shurn great we tried to get in depth
with a lot of examples and data um and
got really good feedback so I'll drop a
link to the YouTube video for that in
the show notes but I I saw that video I
know it's on your homepage so I'll make
sure to link to the home page as well I
forgot thanks thanks for joining me yeah
thanks for having me
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